Dan Loses Patti To Appendicitis

Dan Loses Patti To Appendicitis
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SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: [00:00:00] Today I have another incredible surviving sibling with us, I have Dan Dunsmore. Dan, welcome to the show.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Thank you, Maya. I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and your listeners.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: It's my absolute pleasure. I am looking forward to hearing your story and your journey. You've lost more than one sibling that you're gonna share with us today. But before we get into losing these [00:01:00] incredible siblings that you love and cherish so much still, Dan, take us back in time. Take us back and share a little bit about your family dynamics.

Tell us a little bit about that.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: I'll take you back to 1968.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Let's do it.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Which is, gosh, a long time ago. And my family we were living in South Knoxville, Tennessee. I always say South Knoxville because it's different from the rest of Knoxville. And I take great pride in South Knoxville. It was an idyllic childhood for me. I was a family of, we were a family of seven at that point in 1968.

My baby sister Cindy had just been born and my older brother and sister are 10 and seven years older than I am. So there was that sort of a small cluster of a family. And then I came along and then my sister Patty came along two years later. So we were another little cluster of a family. And then my baby sister Cindy was born.

So that, that sort of describes my family. Living in South Knoxville. We lived in a neighborhood that was just the best neighborhood. Maya. [00:02:00] We. It, we felt safe. We played in the Tennessee River. We biked up and down the streets and back alleys of our neighborhood, fox and Hounds at night in the summertime.

And Patty and I had our own sets of friends and, but we also have mutual friends. And oftentimes the two sets of friends we get together and play together. And that sort of describes my family, I think, in a nutshell. It was, like I said, it was an idyllic childhood really, in a lot of ways.

And everything was great as of 1968 that started to change in 1970 when my sister Patty became ill during the wintertime.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Yeah. And thank you for sharing about your Southern, and I know South Knoxville is different. I don't know if I'm in Atlanta, Dan, so I definitely know southern vibes here. Okay. I love that. I

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Very good.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Yeah. But a southern childhood is a special one and a really and that's a really beautiful area and I definitely get like the [00:03:00] visual image and like feeling of what you guys were doing, and that's.

Amazing. And I appreciate you sharing with us too, that like you and Patty were like, I get being from a bigger family, I'm one of four, which nowadays they're like, wow, that's a big family. But like back in the day, a big family was 5, 6, 7, kids and which is, more your vibe and where you guys, are from, you were a big family.

And so in those family dynamics, you've got, you're paired up with like different, and for me it was me and my brother, even though I have a sister who closer and aged me. It was me and my brother because we were like the wild ones. Like we were outside all the time we were playing. We had that kind of youth that I think sometimes doesn't happen these days, but that's a whole other podcast episode.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Yes. 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: So yeah. You and Patty were like one of the groups in the family dynamic, so I understand that the connection there. But you had just mentioned too, yeah, things changed and. Things happened with Patty. So t take us there. Tell us what was going on with Patty.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: She had a cold, or [00:04:00] at least that's what we thought. I can even at, that many years ago I can remember my family being concerned that she had a cold and it seemed to develop into a flu and maybe into a stomach flu, stomach bug. And she just wasn't getting over it. And I thought, because this is how Patty and I were, we were competitive.

We loved each other, but we were two years apart and she was every bit as outgoing and athletic and all those other things that I, as I was. And so there was some competition there and I just couldn't figure out why she was going to such great lengths for my parents' attention. And it be, it got to the point where especially my dad thought, we maybe need to put her in the hospital.

She's just not getting over this thing. And so they hospitalized her. And I remember that she was in the hospital for a pretty short period of time. This is one of the things I wanna mention to your listeners is that I have had very, a lot of difficulty over the years with timeframes because of all the deaths that [00:05:00] occurred in my family.

It must be a part of the trauma that I was going through. But I, but anyway I since learned that Patty was in the hospital for 10 days. I went to see her on, I guess about the eighth or ninth night or so, maybe the night before she passed away. And one of the feelings of guilt I've had to deal with all my life, Maya, is that the last thing I said to Patty.

The last words I spoke to her were, I can't believe you're doing this just to get my parents' attention and walked out of the hospital room. I will forever wish I had said, I love you, or I hope you feel better, or something other than what I said. But those were the last words I ever spoke to Patty. Sometime that night or the next morning, the physicians finally figured out that she, her appendix had burst and they,

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: the day after you were there.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: that's how I remember it, Maya.

It could have been two or three days [00:06:00] afterwards, honestly,

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: How old were you, Dan? How old were you?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: I had just turned 13.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: That, that's a very interesting age too. That's why I wanted to make sure we dialed into that because, at that age, like the preteen teen age, we do have a decent memory as we grow older, we remember things a little differently but I get what you're saying. So around that time, she had been so sick and she had been in the hospital and they find out.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: They find out she's has her appendix's bursts. And so that morning they rush her to the operating room and she died on the operating table. And sorry, I'll get emotional.

It's been 55 years and I still get emotional, but I so that's how she passed away. And the last time I had seen her was that night before, two nights before when I hope it was jokingly, but I, but, and she, and I'm sure she wouldn't have expected anything other than that for me to say something snarky you're just doing this to get our parents' attention, a thing.

But that, I will always regret that those are my last [00:07:00] words to her, 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: of course. Of course. But I'm I think and we'll talk about this more as, as we continue down in your story, but I, this is such a great testament to the sibling relationship, right? Because like we. Say things like this to our siblings because only we can say 'em. Had anyone else said that to your sibling, you probably would've been like, I'm gonna fight you.

There's no way. But we can say that. But I think it's also a beauty and a testament to how much you love your sister, that you feel guilty about saying that. And we'll talk about how you worked through that, through these years. But I'm curious though. So you were there and she gets rushed in and it's also a highlight on the time too because, fortunately appendicitis now, right?

All these 50 years later, we identify it quickly and not as many people die from it, thank goodness. But back then it wasn't identified as quickly. So tell us a little bit more about what that time looked like. So did, were your [00:08:00] parents called into the hospital? Like how did you find out this is what happened?

What was happening to you as a 13-year-old?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: So the day that the phone call came into our house, it was, which I think was the next day or the day after. That's a blur to me, honestly. I can remember little things here and there, but I remember the phone call coming in. My mother and my older sister were home. My older brother had already recently moved outta the house and was living somewhere else in Knoxville.

'cause he was that much older than I was. But, the call came in and I remember my mother just immediately starting to sob, and then she said something to my sister, Libby. They both began to sob Maya. I don't remember that they ever said anything to me at that moment. They may have ex, they may have said the whole thing to me, but I have no memory of them saying anything to me.

And the next memory I have is being in that house by myself. So my mother and my older sister, Libby, and then my baby [00:09:00] sister, Cindy, left the house at some point. Not too long after that phone call came in. Now maybe they went to the hospital, maybe they went to a neighbor. I don't know. And maybe they weren't gone that long, but it felt like they were gone forever to me.

And I was suddenly in this empty house, very quiet by myself, 13 years old. Not knowing for sure what had happened. I just know that some, something made my mother and my sister very upset. I'm not even necessarily thinking that it has anything to do with Patty but I just remember being in that house by myself.

And then everybody came back to the house and that's when I found out that Patty had passed away. And but 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: you? Dan, do you remember who told you?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: can't remember exactly coming, but I remember my mom and my dad and my sister and my older brother even, they all were suddenly back in that house. My baby sister, Cindy, we were all there in that house together again, and I'm sure it was my mother and my father who were trying to explain to me what had just happened to my [00:10:00] sister.

And, it wasn't. It wasn't expected at, at all. She just had a cold, I still needed to give her a hard time when I show saw her again, right? And so I was in shock. I just went into shock. But that empty house feeling is something that stayed with me all my life. I really have a hard time.

I can be alone. I am alone a lot in houses but I have to have the radio on or the TV playing or I have to be doing something. I really have a difficult time just sitting in an nifty house by myself. And I know it goes back 'cause I've had therapy. I know it goes back to that however long a period of time it was being in that house alone when I wasn't sure what was, what had happened to my family.

But they. They did try their best once they all returned to the house to comfort me and, maybe they realized they, what they had done by leaving me alone. I don't know. But I, suddenly that empty house became the full house again, minus Patty who would never return to the house.

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SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: And we're gonna talk a little more about your therapy journey later in this episode, but I think it's so insightful that you're sharing that. That was a moment that, because I think we need to understand, especially when we've lost a si 'cause we talk about sibling loss here when we lost a sibling at a young age, which you were young, right?

I think everybody thinks young is different. For me, 13 is young and there's different things that shape us in different ways. [00:13:00] But you're a very impressionable. Young person at 13, that's very impressionable. And so this feeling of being alone we could do a whole other episode on this, Dan, because I connect with that too.

I have to have the TV on or some noise happening too. And there's other reasons for that in my own life. But I, that's very insightful and I connect with that. And that's big. So what walk us through what happened. So after, after you found out and after the family the family's all back and it's, you've got that motion back in the house again.

What happened next? Did you guys have a funeral for your sister or what happened? How was that for you? Again, at such an impressionable age of 13, that's a lot.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: so again, a lot of it's a blur, but what I do remember is my father especially. Can started saying, I, I thought it might be an appendicitis. I wish I had questioned the doctors and he didn't. And I don't know that he ever got over that [00:14:00] feeling of guilt that he had. I think it broke his heart irreparably.

'Cause he would sob And my dad wasn't a crier, but he would sob when he would say, I just wish I had mentioned the possibility of an appendicitis to the doctors at some point. The funeral, what I remember about the funeral Maya, was that it was open casket and talk about another southern thing.

I'm sure it brings closure and comfort to some people, but I don't like, I personally don't like the open casket.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: not my thing either.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Yeah, there was Patty, asleep, but I knew she was dead and, and they had dressed her up and I wanted to remember her in a different way than what I was seeing in that casket.

And I, I really wished I hadn't had to see that, and I've been to other open casket funerals since then, and every time I go, I just don't need to see that. I don't need to walk up to that casket one more time and see that person, and so I tend to avoid the casket [00:15:00] at open casket funerals.

Yeah. So that's kinda what happened in the aftermath. I remember people coming to her funeral especially a teacher I had a couple years earlier who it's probably why I went. One of the reasons I went into education myself. This teacher came to Patty's funeral. Two years after I'd been in her class that, teachers make such a difference in people's lives.

And so I have that memory as well. But so that's what I remember in the aftermath. About a week or so after Patty passed away I was, I slept on the second floor of our house and and I must have been wondering if she was okay because she did come to me in a dream one night and it wasn't.

It wasn't freaky, it wasn't scary. It wasn't weird. It was very comforting. She walked up to me in this dream. It was just her in the dream, and I don't know where I was, but she walked up to me and she was actually wearing this frilly dress they had put on her. And she was wearing [00:16:00] what she was wearing in the casket.

And her, and the other thing I remember about her was that her hair was a little bit longer than it usually was. She tended to keep her hair short or my mother kept it short or whatever. So she didn't have a long hairdo, but in this dream, her hair was a little bit longer. And all she said to me was, I'm okay. And she said it twice. said it twice to me. She said, I'm okay. I'm okay. And then she just turned and walked away. And that's always been such a source of comfort to me

That she would let me know she was okay. Because I think I needed to know that.

I needed to know that she was okay.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Yeah. Because and you were mentioning this was pretty fresh after, like pretty recent, after the loss, and she visited you and have you I gotta ask you this, do you think maybe her hair being a little longer was symbolic of time passing?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: That, actually, I haven't thought of that until you just asked that question, but

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: just hit me for some reason. I

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Yeah. Yeah. I'd

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: compelled to ask you that.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Maybe but does your hair grow that fast in just a [00:17:00] week or two? But yeah, but it definitely was longer, but yeah, maybe that is what, and she was also barefooted.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Interesting.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: so I wonder if when you're in a casket or do they put shoes on you? I don't know. I don't know why. That's the other question I've always asked is why was she barefooted in this dream? I understood why I was seeing the dress that she was wearing, but why was the hair a little bit longer and why was she barefooted?

But it was such a comforting dream for me. It still to this day, brings me comfort to know that even in death, she cared that much about me to let me know she was okay, and

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: And she told you that more than once?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: she said it twice and then she just turned. And yeah, that was a big moment for me.

And as she's been, maybe in a handful of my dreams since then, over the years never as the main character again, if you will. And so it was just I felt like she, she had done what she needed to do. She had let me know she was okay, and she didn't need to be in my dreams anymore after that.

She's appeared every now and then, but not really that often [00:18:00] since that night.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Did you feel like even at a young age, did you feel like that was a big, it was so quick after her passing, which a lot of people, a lot of you guys listening to this are gonna be super jealous of Dan, because I can't tell you how many people on our social platforms are like, when is my sibling gonna visit me in a dream?

So they're gonna be jealous of you, Dan, in this one. They're gonna be jealous. But it's did you feel like that was a healing moment, even early in the grieving journey for you

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: It absolutely was a healing moment and it has continued to be a healing moment for me.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: You are emotional just talking about it all these many years later, so it was, this was huge for you.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: It was so significant and it's one of the stories I tell about her that she cared that much to, to see me in the dream and but hasn't continued to re come back. I, like I said, she's been in probably a handful of dreams over the last 55 years since then, but never as like a main character.

I felt like she, she realized I needed that [00:19:00] moment and I was struggling. Maya I'm not a particularly. Religious person. I'm spiritual. I'd like to think I'm spiritual. But I, was so desperate for some sort of comfort. My mother and father were grieving and they were, I'm sure they were doing their best to comfort me, but they were going through their own stuff.

And my older brother was out of the house. By then. My older sister was doing her high school teenage thing, and then I had my baby sister, Cindy. So I did feel very much alone during that time period.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: that was your person.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: That was my person. Yeah. That was my cluster of that family, if you will. Yes, exactly. And so I slept with a Bible for about two or three weeks now, it doesn't make.

That's just entering interesting on its own. But then for me, because I'm not particularly religious, why did I think that sleeping with that Bible might bring me some comfort? But it did. It did. Maya, I needed something to hold onto. And so that sleeping with that Bible helped in the memory of Patty's visit in the dream [00:20:00] helped me as well get through those first few weeks or months.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: So tell us a little bit That's, and that's interesting and I think it is interesting too because I think even if you're not super re like super religious or super spiritual or like wherever you fall, I think we all question whatever our belief was before going through, even if you were right.

Religious. 'cause I know a lot of people in our community and people who have shared on the show. Some of them were really religious or really spiritual, and then going through this type of loss, you question everything. So it's not the craziest thing in the world for me to hear that you had a bible, like you needed something, you needed faith, you needed to believe something.

That's what I get out of your story. Dan, tell us a little bit about how this shaped you and what you mentioned already, how your parents, because obviously they were grieving, share with us the next few years of your life because now you know, your middle school, high school, like this is like shaping your life.

How did this change your family dynamic [00:21:00] and how did this change you? Walk us through some of that because this is such a massive loss to go through at 13.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: I've heard other people who have lost siblings and guests on your show have mentioned too that you maybe subconsciously, at least I did at first. Subconsciously I knew I was living my life for two people. At that point. And then it became a conscious thing later on in my life that, I knew that when I was gonna have some sort of success in my life, or if I was going to go do something fun, that Patty was coming with me.

So I was always doing everything for myself and for her, and hoping she was proud of me, and so that was one thing, and that, that started happening really early on. Like my parents were doing their best to still have me have a normal childhood. So they would, they would take me to a movie or they would do some other activity with me, and Patty was with.

She and I always felt it, it always gave a tinge or whatever that word might be, to, to the happiness I was feeling [00:22:00] at being with my parents. It's I sure wish Patty was here, and so what can I do, to make Patty be here with me? And I remember that feeling often when would I'd be at a baseball game with my parents and, Patty would be sitting right next to me.

That's the only way I could deal with her not being there, was to imagine that she was there with me. I guess if that's probably the best way to describe that, and that's been true for the rest of my life. Even now, Patty's with me, when something happens. So she's there.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: I think that's really beautiful and I feel that way too. I connect very deeply with you on this stand and I think a lot of people listening will connect with that or might be on that journey of how do I keep connecting with my sibling even after they've passed? Especially if it's a recent loss for them.

But it does become a thing where like you wanna carry. Them with you. But that's not something that necessarily happens right away. Sometimes it's something that you evolve with as [00:23:00] you're going through your grief journey. But again, you were so young when this happened, so it was like an evolution for you.

So tell us a little bit about how, like this shape, because, you go into adulthood and stuff. How did this change or evolve in that way for you because, or how did this loss shape your life?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: So it wasn't just the loss of. Patty I think I had repressed a lot of feelings at the age of 13. I was trying to still be a, whatever a normal teenager is, and I remember school being so comforting to me because it was where normal life was happening. My home life had be, been thrown up into this turmoil, and that was made worse.

Maya, unfortunately, when my father passed away two years after Patty passed away and his death was sudden. It was a heart attack and it was, it happened when he was at work and so all the feelings I had [00:24:00] repressed about. Patty came flooding back. 'cause now there was this other, now this new loss.

I now at the age of 15, I had just lost my father. And so Patty was, my feelings about Patty were all still in there, obviously. And so those feelings came flooding back and my mother, who had been strong during this timeframe had now suddenly lost a daughter and a husband in the span of two years.

She fell apart Maya, she really just was not able to be a good parent to me or to my baby sister Cindy. And so my older brother and older sister, rightfully so suggested, actually strongly suggested that they take us out of that house that they'd get some help for mom institutionalize her or whatever they needed to do back in those, the late seventies and have.

Cindy and I live with one of them. And Cindy did that [00:25:00] rightfully she was still a baby, but my eye refused to go. I refused to leave my mom.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Because Cindy would've been, what, 13 at the time, right? 13. You're 15, you're two years apart. Is that right?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: No, that was Patty. My baby sister, Cindy was still an infant. She had just been born.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: that's right. She was very young.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: She was, she would've been four years old at that point.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: So who did she go to live with?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: She went to live with my older sister,

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: So your older sister actually took her

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: sister. Libby, my baby sister, Cindy in and they, and she would've taken me in too, but I refused to leave

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: You wanted to stay with mom, you wanted to stay.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: she's, all I had left.

I felt and my older brother and older sister were such. Loving older siblings to me during that time, and have continued to be my older brother. I could, that could be another podcast to talk about how he stepped in and became a father figure to me. And then eventually a mother figure to me.

And I really was blessed my with incredible siblings and still am. But at [00:26:00] that point, I continued to live with my really emotionally ill mother. And that in hindsight probably was a mistake. I couldn't have done it any other way, but she was not fit to parent me. She and, she had just lost a daughter and a husband and she needed help herself and she didn't need to be parenting this teenage kid, and but I wouldn't leave her. I would not leave her. And then I eventually things got a little bit better. And my baby sister, Cindy, did come back to live with my mother and me, and we moved to a much smaller house. And so now we're leaving this big empty house and moving into a smaller house.

And so I did go away to college and I just recently found some letters I had written to my mother during that time asking her how the parenting was going so that there was, i, there were still concerns about her ability to raise my little sister.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: you are out of college and you're like, [00:27:00] just checking in how's. Mom life going and how's my girl Cindy doing? You're like

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: right exactly. Yeah.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Wow. Let me ask you this, just to back up for a second. So how many years did Cindy live out of the house before she came back?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Probably a couple and, and things started to get a little bit better with. With her mom. And so we thought that she could spend, I don't think she was back with us full time. I think Libby was still very much involved in her parenting.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Your older sister. Yeah.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: sister Libby was still involved with that.

And but it was good enough that I think I felt I could go away to college. And so I did. I went to college in a different state but then

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: You were still checking in with those letters though? Yeah.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: in with them and then then my mother developed a pain in her back when at some point, and it turned out to be cancer. And so during my junior year in college she passed away from cancer.

And so I. Moved back to [00:28:00] Knoxville and helped Libby raise my baby sister Cindy. So we together, 'cause again, my older brother, Buster, I can't say enough about him and how much he stepped in and so forth. But he was older and married and was not even living in Knoxville at that point.

And so Libby and I raised our baby sister Cindy for a number of years while I finished up my college work at UT in Knoxville.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Good for you. That's amazing. Let me ask you this to go back a little bit, and I Yeah, I'm sure your brother Buster was awesome. But he had his own family and stuff, so he was probably just super supportive of you and Libby, but was like, I'm here for you guys. But I've got my family too. So it was a balancing act and I totally get that.

But let me ask you this. So to go back to your dad, it's interesting to me that your dad passed two years and you had mentioned something earlier in this episode about how he had said, I should have said this to the doctor. I should have said [00:29:00] that. I would almost venture to say there was probably a broken heart syndrome a little bit in your father as well.

That's what that story strikes me a little bit. Did you, have you ever ex, you're smiling, so I think you've explored that too.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Absolutely Maya. He died of a broken heart. 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: I dialed into that. I was like we need to tap into this for just a moment because yeah, there was a lot of guilt there. There was and I just, I want you to touch on that because you experienced it. I'm just listening and you guys are listening, but I, you said so many key points that I've heard from other people that have shared stories like that, and he was really beating himself up from what you shared.

I should have said this, I should have, should this, should, should have, should, shoulda, should, shoulda. And I think it's a good story or part of the story to share because we have to forgive ourselves for these things. But I think he, yeah, I think that play. So you feel like he did die of a broken heart too?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: It absolutely was a factor. He, [00:30:00] I can also tell you that he had high blood pressure and, and he smoked.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: So it was a perfect storm 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: was a perfect storm, but but he, I know that he never got over pat's. He, not only did he not get over her death, but he also never got over not questioning the doctors, just simply going up to one of them and saying, could it possibly be an appendicitis?

And he kicked himself for that un until he passed away. And so yes, broken heart definitely was a factor in that for sure. And then my mother's heart was broken too, obviously from losing a child and a husband. And she was already emotionally fragile. I didn't know this about her 'cause she had this way of being strong during the emergency, if you will, but then she would fall apart afterwards.

And in my, during my senior year in high school, she had she tried to kill herself, my mother did. And now this is before I go away to college. Things did get better again after that. But there was a moment in there when it was just my mother and I living together when I refused to stay home with her one [00:31:00] night and she tried to kill herself.

So that's, that was the shape that my mother was in during all this time too.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: She had a broke, she had a broken heart as well. It was just a different, it was manifesting in different ways. Your father felt guilt because he's the leader, he is the provider, he's all of that in the family, and he's I should have identified this. But that was his journey where he needed to forgive himself and like we, we're human, right?

We have to forgive ourselves and we put our trust in doctors and it, that's, there's a lot to unpack there. But then to go to your mom, of course she had a broken heart as well. These are, as we know, like losing a child oh my gosh, it's so heavy and so difficult. But thank you for sharing that with us.

You went through a lot, you went through a lot at very young ages. Did you find your mother? Is that how you knew that she was, she made an attempt, or what was that like

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: So the reason why I had refused to stay home with her that evening, she was feeling particularly lonely and just wanted company. But I had a date, Maya, 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: you're a high school [00:32:00] guy. Come

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: high school guy. I had a date. I wasn't gonna break my date, so I said, no, I'm not, I'm, I've got this date.

I'll see you when I get home. And so I got home, 11 ish or so, and one of our neighbors was at my, at the front door of my house. And so I knew something was up and he said, danny, I went by Danny in those high school days. Danny I need to let you know your mother is taking some sleeping pills and they're come, the ambulance is on the way.

And it was a failed attempt. Thankfully, she, it wasn't successful, but but she certainly was crying out for attention at that point with the overdose of sleeping pills. But still, I refuse to leave her. She was all, I had Maya, I'd lost my dad and my sister and little younger sister and baby sister Cindy was now living with Libby, and Buster was married now.

It was just my mom and I there for a couple years and I wasn't gonna let her go too.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: look, I think you made the right decision, right? And I think that you can sit here and talk about [00:33:00] this very it's a very interesting story about your family and how it's evolved and it's definitely a story of family dynamics, but she clearly needed you.

And so we can look back and we can say, should we have done this? Should we have done that? But Dan, I think you made the right decision. She needed you. She did. Yeah.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: I needed her too. I needed her too. And something else I've heard some of your guests talk about is how your position in the family shifts. When a sibling passes away. And that, I certainly felt that too through those years. 'cause I was a middle child when there were seven of us.

And then Patty passes away and I'm an only child in some ways at that point, or an oldest child to my baby sister, Cindy. So my, I can never quite figure out exactly where my position was in the family. And then when both Libby and Buster had moved out of the house and Cindy had gone away to be with Libby, I truly was an only child with a, [00:34:00] with one parent,

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: you were totally.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: With my mother.

And so that's, that, that big full house of seven was suddenly such a quiet, empty house. And that's just something that stayed, has stayed with me all of my life. I'm not comfortable in empty houses. I have to have something going on.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Yeah it's, so this is coming up again, right from what you shared about the initial loss and then Yeah. And I love that you're sharing this because you're right. It is something that has come up in other episodes, and I like when we talk about this because here's the thing. It's not that when we lose a sibling, it's not that sibling never existed, but Right.

Like you're always gonna be one of one of five, right? It's like that's never gonna change, but we're the ones here having a human experience in life. And so family dynamics change, and that's exactly what happened to you. And I'm so glad that you highlighted that you were an only child in that [00:35:00] house.

Like you're not an only child, you have siblings, but you were playing the role of an only child. You were playing the role of an elder sibling to your sister. So this is very real. Like two things can be true right at the same time. And I think that's something that can really leave a lot of us, especially when we're early in the grief journey.

Dan. I confused. 'cause we're like, but I'm the middle child. Like, why am I feeling like I'm an only child? Or why am I feeling like I'm the eldest child? Because I'm playing that role right now. Not because you know I wanted to or not be, but because that's who I need to be right now for the family

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I felt all that, all of those feels that you're describing. And so it was a little bit confusing, during that timeframe. I wish I. Therapy existed in those days. I'm sure therapy did exist in those days, but it didn't exist for me. In hindsight I wish I had received some therapy, but I didn't go through any therapy of, [00:36:00] until almost 30 years after Patty passed away.

And it was for a, it was for a different reason, Maya. It was because I was going through a divorce. And divorce is tough for anybody in any situation, but for me, for some reason, it was an end of the world feeling for me. So why was I taking this divorce so horribly? In, in difficult ways. And so I went to therapy and the therapist was able to help me understand that Patty had passed away when she was 10 years old.

My daughter at the time of this divorce was 10 years old. And so I was reliving the death of Patty. By the thought of my daughter not being with me all the time. I had a son too. I still have, I have a daughter and a son. But that was and it was also another destruction of a family, my, my family had collapsed in on itself in some ways in my teenage and early twenties.

[00:37:00] And then now this new family of mine, of four was collapsing again, falling apart. So I was reliving the deaths that had happened in my family, especially Patty's death and so many feelings that I should have processed right after Patty passed away. I was now processing 30 years later during this divorce, during the divorce therapy.

And it was so helpful, get therapy early and often, and I wish I had done it far sooner than I did.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: I'm absolutely blown away by this. And thank you for sharing. When we were chatting before we started the episode, of course we were talking about the importance of therapy and we know a common therapist in be in, in our connection. And that's how Dan found us, which is amazing, our dear friend, Dawn.

But this is so amazing. Thank you for sharing that, Dan, because I was curious what you were gonna share and how this came up, but what a revelation that you [00:38:00] were like, okay, I'm going through a divorce, I'm going through a difficult time. I need some help, which look, let's be honest, not a lot of guys have the insight right, to say it's just true.

Men tend to be a little more opposed to therapy. So I'm super proud of you for just being so open and going, but then the knowledge. I feel like think times have changed too with that. But like it used to be a thing and and then it can be a cultural thing. There's a lot of other things that could be, again, another episode we could do talking about that.

But I'm proud of you for going, but like I'm blown away by the insight that you got. You must have had a great therapist because to understand that Patty passed at that age and then your daughter. Was the same age and oh my God, this is why I am feeling so much about this. And oh my God, it's because we are dissolving the family in.

A lot of people say divorce feels like a death. I've been divorced, so I do understand [00:39:00] it's not the same thing, but it brought up so much for me. It, I went through my divorce in 2023 and so I connect so much with you on this because I understand why people say divorce is like a death. It's not the same, but it does bring up so many death things.

It brought up a lot for me. It did for me too. But for you, there's a depth and a level here with your daughter being the same age as your sister who you were closest with, and that was like your ride or die growing up with a lot of things there and you're dissolving and then her death dissolved your family unit deaths.

What happened instead, but a divorce can feel like a death. So for me it's just, it's clicking for me as you're saying this

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Sure.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: how far, I'm just so curious, how far into your therapy journey did you start to realize this? Or did you feel like your therapist was able to give you this moment of clarity because that's huge.

I wouldn't have thought to connect those things.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: It was after several sessions. The therapist took my family history and so I basically [00:40:00] told him the story that I've told you of the deaths in my family and the ages. He wanted to know the ages of when people passed away, how old I was and how old they were. And then he asked me about my current family, and, you know what, and I remember saying I've got a I've got a 3-year-old son and a 10-year-old daughter, and I could see his eyes go like. You need to know something, and he stopped. He said, do you understand that Patty was 10 years old and your daughter is 10 years old? And the tears just started. And so he immediately, as soon as I said the age of my daughter, and this was several sessions in, he said, this is why this is end of the world for you.

This is this is death. This is your pat your sister's dying again. And so he got, he helped me get through all those feelings again. And, but, it but it also reminded me how of how special Patty was and how full of life she was. And and she had [00:41:00] so many friends and she was just a joy to so many people.

So it was good to have those good feelings come back too. But boy, I had repressed so much about her. And maybe because of the death of my parents in the interim I had to repress those feelings even more, 'cause I was dealing with other deaths too. But Patty, more than. Dad and mom, to be honest with you, those were the feelings that came rushing back to me when I was going through my divorce and thank goodness I did have therapy.

It's changed. It's changed my adult life and I have continued to go through therapy all my adult life.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: I'm proud of you, Dan. That's amazing. Yeah. I don't know what I do without therapy too, so I'm with you. It's life changing. It really is. Especially when you've got a great therapist, like your therapist, that can give you insight. That's what it's all about too, right? Someone giving you this insight and can connect the dots for you, and you're like, oh, so I'm not crazy for feeling this or feeling that, like they give you.

In, in, in addition to making you feel like [00:42:00] you're not totally losing it, they give you answers. They give you that kind of mirror back and going this is why you're feeling, and it's invaluable in my opinion, from what I've experienced too. I think that's great. But yeah that's very deep, like what you were going through.

So you, your story is really about secondary losses too, Dan, like a lot of, with your divorce and going through that moment. And so where are you now after that? And you've lost another sibling, which we're gonna talk about in a moment. But going through that experience, how do you feel like you come out on the other side and do you feel like.

Actually, I wanna dial into this too. You were saying that because you lost your mom and you lost your dad immediately after pretty much two years is pretty fast. And then you lost your mom. Like you didn't feel like maybe you got to grieve Patty. A hundred. A hundred percent. So I think there was that healing that happened.

And so after you went through [00:43:00] that, a lot of people that are listening to this, that have lost more than one sibling or have lost more than one person, because that's very real. Like your story you do, it's hard because it's compounding the grief that happens at that point, like what you went through.

But now that you were able to go through your divorce and go through the grieving and bringing up anything maybe you hadn't processed, what was life for you like after that? And then we'll get into Libby as well.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Yeah. I do want to talk about Libby but before Libby I should mention that, someone came back into my life. I had been divorced for a while and I was floundering in relationships. I was trying to raise two children as a single dad too. Half the time my ex-wife and I shared custody, so half the, every other week that my children with me.

So that was what my main focus was, them during those timeframes. But as far as a dating life I was floundering. When [00:44:00] Patty and I were children, I think I mentioned we had our separate set of friends and we had mutual friends. And there was one other family in our neighborhood who we were all particularly close to.

And her Patty's best friend was this little girl named Murph. It's a funny nickname, Murph. And they were best buddies. And when Patty passed away, Murph stopped coming around the house too. And we her family was grieving too over the death. And so our families. Just because we didn't know what to say to each other.

Kind of grew distant. But Murph and I went to high school together and ran in the same circles and all, and we stayed in touch over the years. Our family stayed in touch. But it wasn't the same after Patty passed away really. But I'll make a long story short 'cause it's for another podcast, but Murph and I are now married and she has saved my life.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: And how long have you

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: not an exaggeration to say that her coming back into my life in this [00:45:00] big way

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Yeah.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: has saved my life. And we celebrate Patty. We talk about her. We cry about her. Patty was Murph's best friend, and so we, and we're married now, and it's just the most beautiful thing for me.

IC and my, my second marriage has been a such a blessing and Murph has saved my life. And so that really, she is to receive credit for a lot of my healing over the years. And in addition to the therapist, and so yeah. And so we've been married now for about 18 years

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Congratulations. That's

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Yeah. 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: This is such an important part of your story. That's why I wanted you to share this with us. He gave me a little teaser before we got on. I was like, oh my God, I can't wait to share this with you guys because how special. How special that your sibling that you were clustered with in your family.

Like her best friend, Murph. Murph, shout out. We love you. How special. That's really special. How did you guys reconnect? We gotta know we can't leave people on the edge of their seat. How did you guys reconnect? This is wild.[00:46:00] 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: so the way that we stayed connected mainly were through yearly Christmas cards. I would send her family a Christmas card. She would send my family a

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: All these years after your sister passed.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Oh yeah, it would, it was a Christmas card every year. And and then I went to see her one year when we were both married to other people.

And for me, mur had always been my little sister's bratty friend. I didn't, I couldn't see the beauty in her in those days. She was just another bratty kid in the neighborhood who was my sister's friend. And nor could I really see it in high school. But when I saw her that time as an adult, married with children of her own, she was beautiful.

Maya, she is beautiful. Not just physically beautiful, but beautiful and all the other ways too. But we were married to other people, but something must have registered in the, at that point. But, so a few years after that, she sent me a Christmas card and we jokingly differ on what the [00:47:00] Christmas card said, but I have always interpreted her Christmas card as an invitation.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Oh.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: And so I, and I accepted that invitation. She knew I had been divorced for a couple years. She had recently divorced. And on New Year's Eve of that year, we met in Knoxville back in our hometowns. And that was our first date. And this was 18 years ago. And we've been together ever since.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: I knew you were gonna say that. I love it. That's so sweet. I love it. I love it. And I'm sure she, like you mentioned earlier, it's, I don't know, I think your sister's with you on that one, but that's a whole other,

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: we laugh. We laugh. All must think this.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: yeah. That's awesome.

Let's talk about Libby. So Libby's, your amazing older sister who was, outta the house when this happened, but was raising Cindy. And so take us to 2010 when you lost [00:48:00] Libby.

I'm sure that brought up a whole lot for you, but talk to us about that.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: It did and certainly I handled those final days with her better than I had handled that last moment with Patty. And then that's always been a blessing too. But I gotta take you back to Libby's birth, though. Even before I was born, she was a miracle child. The doctors had told our parents that she probably wouldn't live through her childhood because she had a severe spinal problem.

And they said that she did live. That her she'd never be able to walk just because the spine was too curved or whatever, too broken. So she proved the doctors wrong. Not only did she live a long life, but she actually was a cheerleader and a gymnast as a young adult. So she proved the doctors wrong on that one, and she was a miracle child.

And she also was a smoker. And, my older brother who's still alive, and I and my baby sister Cindy we really do in some ways chalk up smoking to a lot of our family [00:49:00] problems, deaths, but when other factors. But, and so she started to have health problems in her forties and and there, there came a point where we really thought she was going to die.

I can remember being in a hospital one night with her husband in Knoxville, and we were actually trying to make the decision whether. We would remove all the lines from her and so forth. And ultimately it was her husband's decision to make. And and so he decided, yeah, let's pull the lines. And she made this miraculous turnaround again, Maya. And so she ended up living for another three or four years after that until she passed away. So she was this miracle child and she was the one person on this planet who loved me unconditionally. I think even. Even my other brother and other people in my [00:50:00] life, even Murph, there's probably something I could do that would break that love pact, but not with Libby. I could have done anything and she would still love me. She, and that's how she was with everybody. That's how she had been with my baby sister, Cindy. And she just loved people and she wasn't able to have children of her own again, I think because of that spinal issue she had.

So everybody else in the world became her child, and she did her best to try to raise me. She did a great job with our baby sister, Cindy. And so we were close, but more so from an older sister kind of standpoint. She was seven years older than I am. And but I wish everybody on this planet could love the way that she loved, she loved fiercely.

She and wouldn't take no for an answer when she loved you, you were gonna love her back. And and that, that describes Libby, I think as best I can. She just loved people unconditionally. And we think she waited until we were all in Knoxville to pass [00:51:00] away.

I've heard of people doing that. We had all actually had gone to Knoxville for Thanksgiving in 2010 because Murph's father had just passed away. And again, this was, we, our families were friends. We all knew Murph's father. So we had all gone to Knoxville for Thanksgiving to support Murph's family in his death.

And then Libby suddenly is hospitalized again while we're all down there. And she passed away on Thanksgiving Day.

After we'd all had a chance, my older brother, my baby sister, and I and Murph, we'd all had a chance to say goodbye to her, and then she passed away. I really think she waited for that. 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: She was like the, I think it's interesting. Thank you for sharing her with us too. It's important that we talk about all your siblings that, especially on here, talk about your siblings who are no longer and it's, she didn't have children biologically, but [00:52:00] she took care of Cindy.

That was her baby. She took care of you. And as the mama matriarch doesn't surprise me that she was holding on. So you guys could all, but I love her story too. I think that's really special. You have some really special siblings.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: I do. And they were a blessing. And I know that not all families have what I had. And so I do count my blessings in that regard. Yes, therapy has helped throughout the years, but I would not have made it without my older brother. Older brother Buster and Libby and baby sister Cindy too.

We the three of us who are now still alive, we don't live physically close. My brother's in Indiana. My sister's in Knoxville, and I'm in Maryland now. But we are emotionally as tight as any siblings could possibly be, and I know it's because of those losses brought us, has have brought us together, so we're tight.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: that's not always the case, Dan. It's not always the case like we were talking about earlier. So I think even though it did create this, these [00:53:00] losses like your father we think there's some things there, also with your mother. I think it's a beautiful testament to each one of you that you.

Have been able to be close and have a good relationship because that's not everybody's story, as from listening to the show, as you guys know, from listening to the show, that's not everybody's story. And it's wonderful that you appreciate that and you hold that close to your heart. Dan, is there anything I didn't ask you today that you wanna share with our incredible audience?

Feel free to share 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: just one more thing about Libby, if I could. Because, 'cause we all learned a very valuable lesson from her which I think the world could learn. She and she actually drove us crazy with this when she was alive, but she was so right. She would never end a conversation with one of us either on the phone or in person without saying, I love you. And I remember that horrible thing I said to Patty way back when, you're just doing this for our parents' attention when I could have just said, I love you. And she, Libby, would drive us [00:54:00] crazy with this, but we never talked with her on the phone or otherwise by her saying, I love you.

And so the night before she died, I did hug her and say, I love you. And we need to love each other. We need to overcome whatever is going on and just find a way to love each other. It will, it helps you so much with the rest of your life to know that you said that and that you felt that from your siblings.

So don't hesitate to tell people you love them. Don't wait. Don't wait.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: I love that, Dan, and what a kind of 360 healing moment for you that you were able to say that to Libby, but you weren't able to say that

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Yeah, exactly. 

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: So I hear the emotion behind that because of course, you're in a place now where it's I wish I would've done that, but I didn't. And it makes you emotional, but you got to it. It's a moment where you get to do that for someone else. And [00:55:00] you were able to do that for Libby I'm sure that was a really healing moment and bring it all

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: it so was, and it's been such a comfort to me, in the last 15 years that Patty that Libby's been gone. Yeah. That's it's been a comfort. Sure. And and if people want to be in touch with me i'm happy to share my email address, but I'm in Facebook, I'm in Instagram. Those are the only two people in their sixties aren't too many other places, but but yeah Facebook and Instagram for me. May I share my email address?

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Yep. We're gonna put, yep, we're gonna put it in the show notes, so let him know what your email is. Yep.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: okay? So it's DF dunmore@comcast.net.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan Maya View: Perfect. And we'll put it in the show notes as well, because especially our listeners who have lost more than one sibling or lost more than one family member, they're going to connect with your story. If they've lost a sibling in the same way as you, Dan, they're gonna connect with that. And then also, folks that have been on this journey for a couple of decades or had, they're gonna connect with you too.

So Dan, thank you so [00:56:00] much for being here today, and thank you for sharing not only, Patty's story, but also Libby's story and your family story. We really appreciate you being here.

SS8, Ep 8- Dan: Maya, thank you for the chance. I really appreciate it.

Thank you so much for listening to the Surviving Siblings Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode as much as I did creating it for you, then share it on your chosen social media platform. And don't forget to tag us at Surviving Siblings Podcast so that more surviving siblings can find us. Remember to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast.

And don't forget to follow us on all social media platforms. We're on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Surviving Siblings Podcast. All links can be found in the show notes, so be sure to check those out too. Thank you again for the support. Until the next episode, keep on surviving my surviving [00:57:00] siblings.