Susan Casey - Finding a Purpose in Grief

[00:00:10] Maya: Hey guys, welcome back to the Surviving Siblings podcast. I am so, so, so pumped about the episode today. I have the amazing Susan Casey with me today, who is not only an incredible author and so many other things, she is a dear friend of mine. Susan, Welcome to the show.

[00:00:34] Susan: Thank you, Maya. I have been so looking forward to this episode 

[00:00:39] and talking to you.

[00:00:42] Maya: I have been too. We have been chatting so much. You had me on your incredible podcast, which is,

[00:00:49] Susan: Rock your shine after you've been cracked wide open. 

[00:00:53] Maya: yes, and it's, you know, it's very applicable to your story about losing your brother. And so that's kind of where I want to start today. Susan is tell us a little bit about. Your amazing brother, Rocky, he has such a rich story. Um, obviously you wrote a book about it, you've got a podcast. Share with us a little bit about Rocky so we really understand him and understand your relationship and then obviously we'll progress and continue the conversation about, unfortunately, losing him in 

[00:01:26] Susan: Yeah,

[00:01:27] yeah,

[00:01:28] well, thank you for that. My brother, um, I think all of us who have lost a sibling, you know, sort of think about them as bigger than life. And, and with my brother, I, he really was, I mean, my brother was a very charismatic. He was, he was, you know, physically he was beautiful. Um, and he also, You know, like, like all of us, he had a shadow side and, um, but, you know, he, my brother was in the spa industry and he had this, just this thirst for life and, um, and so he ended up getting a job on a cruise ship.

[00:02:09] And he went to Bali, Indonesia I mean, so that tells you something, he uprooted his life and lived halfway across the world. I mean, I can't even get out of the state of Maine. So for me, that was like, wow, I can't imagine moving halfway across the world. But, you know, some of the things that I talk about with my brother, Rocky, is he also expanded my life because then I flew over to Bali, Indonesia, which I never would have done if he didn't live there.

[00:02:37] Um, and then of course he died over in Hong Kong and I ended up flying to Hong Kong. And so I write about this too, how he just continued to expand my life after his death. He was about adventure and sometimes that adventure got him into trouble. Um, But it is what I love most about him because I, you know, live such a stable, steady life.

[00:03:01] And he was, there's five of us. I have four brothers and he's the one in our family that was constantly going on some wild and crazy adventure. Um, and in 2014 is when he died on Valentine's day. Of course, he had to go out with a bang too on a hall, you know, on a holiday that, um, You know, that's all about love and I think that that was just one of those events, you know, when he died that it's like, of course he died on Valentine's Day. 

[00:03:34] Maya: right. Yeah, I, yeah, I remember, um, I, we'll get into your book in a little bit, but yeah, I remember, um, reading that and, and knowing that that was the day and it's, it's interesting, you know, that's a, a whole conversation and perhaps a special edition episode, you know, it's like the day that, you know, I've noticed that even this season, there's really specific days that we've lost our siblings.

[00:03:57] And I think that's really 

[00:03:59] Susan: interesting Yeah. 

[00:04:00] Maya: Right. Very interesting. But I think one of the things that really. Just connected us, and I think a lot of you guys will connect with this too, is that there's a, there's a common theme very often in siblings that we lose where they kind of live fearlessly and when I read your book and then also when we've shared about our brothers, my brother was that way too.

[00:04:19] Like, my brother just kind of flew by the seat of his pants in a lot of ways and was like, oh cool, I'm gonna go travel to Africa and see dad. I'm gonna go do that. Like, it was just like, That kind of stuff gave me, while I'm a risk taker, I'm, you know, when I tell people, I'm like, no, no, no, you have not met Andreas yet, and I feel like that is so rocky, that's like the embodiment of them, like there's just no fear there, they just kind of went for it, and your brother created a life there as well, which is just interesting, 

[00:04:55] Susan: and incredible right?

[00:04:56] like who moves to Bali Indonesia and lives. 

[00:04:59] Maya: Right. Right. And then, and then in addition to that, creates a family and falls in love. I mean, that's, that's just 

[00:05:05] Susan: Yeah, 

[00:05:06] Maya: to me. Yeah. 

[00:05:07] Susan: And it was hard. You know, that's the other piece I'll say that it was very difficult to I mean, I taught I smile and I talked about his sense of adventure, but it was also deeply painful. At the very same time that he would move So

[00:05:20] far away from his family. I mean it was it was hard for all of us that we, you know, we all live in very close proximity we are very tight family, and for him to anyone's one of my,

[00:05:31] favorite people on the planet that you and I have talked about this and so for him to be so far away.

[00:05:37] was really also very painful.

[00:05:42] Maya: and I can definitely connect with that too because I never, you know, as I've shared myself, like I never knew where my brother was, you know, I'd sometimes he'd be like, I'm in California right now. And, you know, a lot of people will ask me, they're like, well, I thought he lived in Atlanta. And I'm like, Kind of, you know, I mean, he would just kind of be all over the place.

[00:06:01] He was 

[00:06:01] very, um, transient for lack of a better term there. And so, you know, there's something that's. While I have the travel bug and traveled so much, mine was, I connect much more with you, Susan, in the fact that it was very structured and I always had a home base and like, you know, although I had that in me, I needed to make sure I was very responsible and with him, it was very different and I just, you know, learning more and more about Rocky and, you know, reading your book and us being now so bonded in so many ways.

[00:06:34] I'm just like, gosh, I just, these two would have been, you know, friends, 

[00:06:38] Susan: friends, 

[00:06:40] Maya: you know, um, it's very interesting. So tell us a little bit about what was going on with Rocky, because he was living overseas, you know, tell us a little bit about your family dynamic too, because there's. You know, you're from a big family like I am an even bigger family.

[00:06:58] How did everybody kind of take that? I know that was hard for you. Um, were there other siblings, you know, your other brothers were How engaged were they like kind of paint that picture for us? How was that? Well, he was living 

[00:07:13] Susan: Yeah

[00:07:13] so with risk takers in the sense of adventure, there can also be that shadow side, as I

[00:07:17] was saying earlier. And So my brother dabbled in, you know, drugs and alcohol and all of those things. And it was problematic for him. It became problematic. And he was married very young. His wife was pregnant and he ended up leaving her after she had the baby.

[00:07:36] And you can imagine the kind of, judgment that he got. There was a lot of friends who abandoned him as a result because they could not, they just, they simply could not respect the decision that he had made to leave his wife and his newborn baby. But he was also actively using at this point. Part of the reason he took that job.

[00:07:57] Uh, on the cruise ship was to get clean and it ended up working quite frankly, but, but he, you know, but it was a hard pill for his family and his friends to swallow. And so in some ways he was running away from his shadow side, what he could, cause he also couldn't deal with the decision that he made. He had a ton of guilt around that.

[00:08:22] So when he moved to Bali. I think my family, we were all licking our wounds. It was because we were very close to his wife and of course aunts and uncles to his, you know, and grandparents to his. baby. Um, it was a very challenging time for all of us. However, with that being said, I always supported my brother with the decisions that he made because at the end of the day, we all have to reconcile with ourself.

[00:08:50] We make decisions. Sometimes we regret those decisions, but at the end of the day, aren't we all trying just to follow the calling of our own heart? And I felt like with my brother. Because of his sense of adventure and who he was that he never should have gotten married in the first place, quite frankly, because he was not ready and but he did what he thought he should do.

[00:09:13] They had dated for 10 years, they went through college together, etc. So he followed those, you know, the steps of what he thought he should and should not do. And that just wasn't who my brother was. So here, he abandons everything, he goes on this cruise ship, he gets clean, and he moves to Bali, and he ends up getting...

[00:09:32] ahead of spa for Four Seasons Resort. It's a five, it's a, it's a five star resort. So he moves to Bali, Indonesia and works at the Four Seasons Resort. He had a great job. He meets a, he meets his Balinese wife and they have a baby and he really was in this. The best place he had been in ever and you know, my brothers and I, we had flown over there, We Went to Bali and then he ended up going to Cairo each Cairo Egypt to work at Four Seasons there for a little while and again his sense of adventure. He took his family And he and he ended up coming down with vertigo and for people who don't just to keep it super simple It's an inner ear imbalance thing where you feel dizzy.

[00:10:19] Nobody, they couldn't figure out what was going on, what was causing the vertigo. So they ended up putting him on Xanax, which is a very short term solution to, it was, it's always, no one is put on Xanax and are meant to be on Xanax for long periods of time. But he was, he's in Bali, he's in this third world country and he's on this medication.

[00:10:41] Uh, for three years. I'm sorry. I'm getting way outside the scope of the question that you would ask me about my family. But the vertigo is what led to his eventual death. Um, and, uh, and at one point, uh, he was offered a job in Hong Kong, which is that's where he ended up dying. And he was going over there to meet his new team because he was going to be the head of spa for the Rosewood hotels.

[00:11:08] And he was opening spas across Asia, but he stopped off at Bangkok and they took him off cold turkey, the Xanax. which caused the seizures and then he had encephalitis of the brain and that's what killed him was his swelling of his brain. Um, is that tied to taking him off Xanax? We will never know. We will never know.

[00:11:28] It took us a year to get that autopsy report. But, um, so my brother, I, what I can tell you though, Maya, is that I was, Rocky was the guy that I was always worried about. Always worried about him. Always afraid he was going to die young due to this. You know, the drugs, the alcohol, the sense of adventure, the whole thing.

[00:11:49] I felt like my brother was constantly throwing caution to the wind. 

[00:13:46] Maya: so much to unpack. there,

[00:13:47] Susan: know. I'm sorry. I sort of went off. 

[00:13:50] Maya: No, that, this is exactly what we do here, right? This is what we do. We unpack and like, I think there's so many things in this story, like bringing awareness. We're all kind of work our way back, but bringing awareness to, you know, we talk a lot about right now, everyone's talking about fentanyl and opioids and things like that, but we don't talk that much about.

[00:14:12] Benzos, and we don't talk that much about, you know, what the impact that that can have and personally myself That's something that I've taken on and off for a very long time And I this is the responsible side of us right Susan. I've had so much anxiety always I'm like, I don't want to be addicted to this I don't want to you know But there is a time and a place for things like that 

[00:14:31] Susan: Mm hmm. 

[00:14:32] Maya: appreciate you bringing up Vertico reference because it's not just like an Alfred Hitchcock movie.

[00:14:38] Like it really is a real thing. You guys don't know. Right. It's um, I had never experienced it personally until a few years ago, after going through a severe car accident, and then subsequently having another one. And it is, it's kind of like when people don't understand migraines. Right. It's, it's completely debilitating and, um, and can cause 

[00:15:01] Susan: Big time, but debilitating. Yes. 

[00:15:05] Maya: It can cause a lot of issues. You know, um, I think sometimes people think, you know, I'm having like the worst headache in the world. I have a migraine. And, or when people are like, I feel really dizzy. And I'm like, it's the same kind of reference. Like, dizzy is not the same as vertigo. Vertigo is debilitating.

[00:15:20] It's like, you're not even, it's like an out of 

[00:15:22] Susan: It's all your hmm. 

[00:15:27] Maya: Very intense, very intense. And so I think, again, this is one of the reasons I love just having so many incredible guests like yourself on, because we were bringing awareness to things that maybe we wouldn't normally talk about. Right. And things that seem kind of like it's terminology we use on a daily basis.

[00:15:44] Oh, I'm having a little vertigo or I'm having a migraine or I'm having this, but like, there are, these are things that really impact. People and they pass away from this and I know we're gonna, we're gonna get to the actual, you know, story of this as, as we progress, but I really wanted to get into your relationship with Rocky and then also kind of paint who he is as a person.

[00:16:05] And, you know, I often, um, I think we both do this and a lot of you guys probably do this too. I talk about my brother in the present tense. Very often I interchange present and past tense because they're here with us 

[00:16:17] Susan: Oh, exactly. I talk to Rocky every day. He, uh, he's very much a part of my life. He al he, he's very much a part of my life still. He's transitioned. He's transitioned and I I miss his physical presence. I mean, I, I, I went through a very dark period after he died. Um, but he also, but he's also a very much a part of my life.

[00:16:38] I have conversation. I talk to him. I feel him. Um, and. He's, I feel like the work I do now, uh, the deep grief and loss work I do with human beings and group and things like that, that he's very much a part of. My brother's death changed the trajectory of my life or not changed it, but got me more. I think that.

[00:17:00] he changed how I practice in my field.

[00:17:04] That's a better way to put it. My focus. 

[00:17:07] Maya: right. I, and I think that's, oh, that's such a good piece to like talk about just for a second, Susan. So tell everyone what you, cause I know you have the podcast in the book and we're going to talk about that 

[00:17:19] Susan: Mm hmm. 

[00:17:20] Maya: but. As far as your, your work, tell everybody what you do for work. And I know you're, you're focusing a little bit more on the show and the book and stuff, but your work, you've worked in, in this field.

[00:17:33] And then I want to ask you another question about the shadow aspect, but if you could explain that to everybody, 

[00:17:38] Susan: Mm hmm. 

[00:17:39] Maya: evolved your work, you know, after losing Rocky it's, it's changed. And I love how you said it changed the trajectory, but not really. I feel like it puts you on the right 

[00:17:49] Susan: Yeah.

[00:17:50] exactly. That's, that's A better way to put it that, uh, well, I've been in the mental health field. I mean, honestly, it's, it's 30 years this year. It was 30 years in May. Um, yeah. 

[00:18:02] Maya: anniversary. Yeah.

[00:18:05] Susan: And so, but the last, you know, but, but in the field, um, you know, I was clinical director of a huge organization. And then, um, for the last 20 years, I've worked with clinical teams around the country training them around measurement based care, which I won't get into.

[00:18:21] We will literally cause people to fall asleep, but it's just, it's, it's using measurement to inform. clinical treatment with patients and I would train those clinical teams. Um, and so after and after my brother died, um, and, and I'm a writer as well. I was a fiction writer prior to his death. And after I wrote this nonfiction book on specific to sibling grief, and I interviewed people all over the world and then launched.

[00:18:48] A grief and loss, but it's not really a grief and loss. It is a grief and loss podcast, but it's more about the transformations that happen as a result of when our lives get blown apart. And, um, and so with, with, and also in grad school, I wrote my dissertation on writing through grief, loss, and trauma when I got my degree as a therapist.

[00:19:12] So it's very interesting how my life changed. Kind of came full circle when I was writing my own way through grief and loss as a writer and wrote my book. And so from there, I finally had the courage, um, to leave a huge job, uh, in November. And, um, and decided that I was going to, 

[00:19:34] Maya: you lost Rocky in February, of course. And so then this happened in November when you left.

[00:19:39] Susan: it, it, well, no, 10 years later. So my brother died in 2014, but it was last November that I left my. My national, my national job of training teams around the country. And I've been, like I said, I've been doing that for 20 years. So it was in it and I've done things on the side, like my podcast. I've always carried a couple of clients.

[00:20:02] I taught grief and I did bereavement groups at the center for grieving children. And so when he died, what I. Where my heart has taken me is deeper into the field of grief and loss. So I carry a few clients, um, I, and now I have And I've expanded that into grief and loss work with groups, parents who have lost a child, siblings, etc.

[00:20:29] And now I'm working on, as you know, because you're going to be my guest, is really creating my podcast into an actual grief and loss show, um, where I can be in, and when I say grief and loss, it's not only the loss of a human, it's the grief that happens when something traumatic happens in our world.

[00:20:50] blows our world apart as we've known it. A loss of a dream, a loss of a job. A divorce divorces can be extraordinarily traumatic. Um, and we don't acknowledge grief in this country. We, what we hear is pull yourself up by your bootstraps and march forward. We do not acknowledge. That when there is an ending, when there is a beginning to anything, there is an ending.

[00:21:17] And we must take the time to digest and acknowledge and feel our way through that pain because it will leak out in other ways. It can leak, it can manifest as a physical ailment. It can turn into a mental health issue of anxiety and depression. It can manifest in a whole host of different ways. We are human beings.

[00:21:42] We've got to allow, give ourselves the space and the grace to feel our way through it 

[00:21:50] Maya: Yeah.

[00:21:50] Susan: so that we can move forward or move on as we, you know, as, uh, some of the messages that we hear in our life. 

[00:22:00] Maya: Right. Yeah. I just, I, I love you so much, Susan. I love when you get so excited. You're like me, we get so excited about when we're talking about our things that, you know, just inspire us. And I think it's, uh, again, so much to unpack again, but I think it's interesting that. Um, you know, those of us that have been on this journey, whether it's a year or two years, two decades, three decades, whatever it is, right?

[00:22:25] Um, I think it's really interesting because it does, like you said before, it does change the trajectory, but it doesn't change the trajectory. It kind of pushes you into your 

[00:22:36] Susan: Narrows narrows the lane, right? It narrows the lane. Yeah. 

[00:22:40] Maya: it's like, I, I'm one for metaphors and so it's like, it's almost like you're going down this road in life always, right?

[00:22:48] And then, you know, you've got all these different roads you can turn off to and all these different ways and paths and then when something like this happens, right? Like losing Rocky, losing Andreas, losing your sibling guys, right? Or siblings, God forbid. 

[00:23:03] Susan: Yeah. 

[00:23:04] Maya: all of a sudden. You know, there's fog on the road and it's confusing and you're not really sure and then it starts to kind of dissipate and there's.

[00:23:13] Really that road where you're looking at it and you're like see all these turnoffs and they kind of start to go away and You kind of start to have this much more narrow direction and you just know keep going down this one it's it's the way to go and at least that's my personal experience because It felt, and I often say the first year, two years, it depends on your, you know, grief is a snowflake.

[00:23:37] We all have different experiences. They're all individual, but we can connect on, on so many different levels. And that's the metaphor that's now kind of going with me because it felt like a fog, but when it started to dissipate, there was no longer so many different paths to turn off in. It was like. Oh, this is the road, and I might not see the end, but like, there's trees around me.

[00:24:03] That's how I envision it, because my brother loves trees. So, and I just know, and I just kind of know, and sometimes things happen along the way, like, you know, your podcast has evolved, and now you're going to be doing a show, and like, there's so many amazing things happening, but you kind of get in a place.

[00:24:21] Where you allow things to happen, as long as you're just continuing to just follow your heart and follow your soul and follow this, um, trajectory that was kind of always there, but you're being guided, like that's how I, I feel and I don't know, I didn't expect to kind of go that deep with, deep with this, 

[00:24:37] Susan: I actually,

[00:24:38] I, I, 

[00:24:39] Maya: Susan.

[00:24:39] Susan: I, well, I love that because that's exactly right. We all have. People have different language, but if you want to call it your soul, your intuition, your, you know, our spirit team, you know, we all have spirit teams and guides and angels and whatnot. And we're here, you know, on this planet. As spiritual beings having a human experience and every experience we have, we get to know ourselves a little bit more.

[00:25:06] And that's why, like, this analogy that you have around the fog dissipating, that is at the heart of Rock your shine after you've been cracked wide open because when we have deep heartbreak, whatever that is, it is an opportunity that we can take or not take to really go into the, the, the darkness of or the shadow land or whatever you whatever you want to call it and get to know ourselves in an entirely different way.

[00:25:34] That is a choice, however. The heartbreak can cause lots of things in people. Some people get very angry and they resist or can't accept what has happened. Some people go into a deep depression. Some people turn to drugs and alcohol or be or throw themselves into work. There is a lots of different ways that the pathways, as you said, that we can take when something traumatic happens in our life.

[00:26:01] It is. A choice. And that's why I said earlier, if we can give ourselves the space to process, we will get to know ourselves in an entirely different way. And there will be that clearing of what, what is it that I would like to do with the rest of my life? Because, you know, the one thing that we know for certain is we are, all going to die at some point.

[00:26:29] We don't know how we don't know when. But knowing that we are going to drop to die one day should drive our decision every single day. It should drive all of our decisions knowing how precious and how And how short this life actually is, but those of us when we lose somebody suddenly and your listeners, we've lost a sibling, it becomes so much more real of how temporary our time is here on earth.

[00:27:00] What are we going to do? do with that time. For me, it's like I am going to help people reclaim their life after a deep loss of some kind because joy is waiting for us and our loved ones do not want us to be in despair. It is, it, we, we must grieve them and then we move. The way I think about me with my brother is I move forward with him in my heart and And I want to live more fully because, because of that loss, because I understand now how temporary this time on this planet actually is.

[00:27:44] How do I want to contribute to what contribution do I want to make while I still have time as a result of his loss? That's the way I think about my life 

[00:27:59] Maya: yeah, I think that's beautiful. And I think that's, it's helpful for me to hear that and hopefully really helpful for all of you guys to hear that too, because what I hear so often, and I know you've heard this even more than me, Susan, because you've been in this field for. Quite some 

[00:28:16] Susan: on time 

[00:28:17] Maya: and, 

[00:28:20] Susan: That's how I can say a long time. 

[00:28:22] Maya: yeah, I, yeah, I mean, but you know, and it's going to be a lot longer because you're just continuing and I love it.

[00:28:29] But I think, you know, it's very interesting to me, the terminology that you use, because you're like, I carry him in my heart to move forward, right? You're not leaving him in the past. You're not moving on, you know, without him. You're Moving forward with him in your heart and something I hear very often from people.

[00:28:46] And again, I'm sure you've heard it a jillion times more than me is, you know, and I felt this way. So I understand this completely. And I understand if you guys feel this way, especially if it's a recent loss that, you know, people are like, My brother's gone. My sister's gone. My siblings are gone. Like, I don't want to live.

[00:29:03] I don't want to be here. And you know, I just, my world is done. Everything's ending. Like, I get asked this question almost every single time I go live on TikTok or, you know, I do a Q& A or anything like that. I'm sure it's something similar for you, Susan, because it feels so helpless. You feel so helpless and there is that, that realization that life is so short.

[00:29:28] Anyone can be taken from us, including ourselves at any time, anything can happen, but it's about, this is my opinion. So I'd love for you to weigh in on this, but my, when things shifted for me, cause I felt that way, I was very guilty of that. I'm like, what's the point? Why am I going to move forward? This, this was like my soulmate in this, in this lifetime, my brother.

[00:29:47] And. I know we've connected so deeply because I know you feel so strongly about Rocky in that way too. And, you know, it's, um, things really shifted for me when I was like, no, no, no, Maya. And this took time, took, you know, as I've shared in season one, we all know this, but reframing that and going, oh, I didn't just wake up one day this way.

[00:30:12] Right. But I finally was like, it started to kind of sink in more and more. I'm like. No, but I'm still here today. I'm still here tomorrow. I was here yesterday. What am I doing to fulfill myself? What am I doing to live for him as well? I got to live for myself first, but I've got to live for him. I've got to what am I doing for these things?

[00:30:32] You know what's gonna fill my heart up because I might not be here tomorrow. I hope I am And that's when things shifted for me too. I was like, Oh, I hope I am here tomorrow. I was like, okay, I'm shifting. I'm shifting. I'm starting to move forward. I'm carrying, you know, the light in me again. And so that's what I started to chase was what was giving me light, what was making me feel like I was giving back, what was helping me help other people.

[00:30:56] And like, everybody gets filled different ways, but that was a huge, huge shift for me. In this grief journey and it's for life. So, you know, I don't know talk to me in 10 years. I'll have other opinions, right? So, but I think that was a really, really big thing and I think it's, you know, important because people hear me talk, people hear you talk, people hear a lot of People that are in this and helping in in the grief and loss area and of course we talk about sibling loss here And I think in the beginning you feel so hopeless and I want to normalize that that's totally normal You're not gonna wake up, you know after the funeral or celebration of life or whatever you do and go Okay, I'm ready to give back.

[00:31:38] I'm ready to live. I've got the light in me, right? So, you know, what's your opinion on that, Susan? Because I think it is really a journey, but it can be as horrific as it is, and I would never wish this on anybody. I never would. It can be... an unexpected gift for you to, to, to give back to the world. I really think it can be.

[00:31:59] Susan: I will say I love where you're going with this because I could talk about this in a series of conversations, but I've got three quick things that come to mind that I want to say outright. One is, each one of us have our own soul path, every single human being on this planet. We are all, all of us. At our core, at our soul, our love, that's our essence.

[00:32:25] And we all have our own path to walk. Sometimes we have contracts, right, with, you know, perhaps one of the contracts was with my brother is that he was going to pass so that I could go off and do this grief work. Who knows? But this is what I will say. We each take our first breath alone when we are born and we all take our last breath alone when we die.

[00:32:47] We do not do that together. And what we do between those two breaths is what matters, right? What contribution are we going to make while we're here? We are going to have painful events happen because we're human beings. And it's what helps to expand our consciousness and expand, um, Uh, and expand our understanding of who we are.

[00:33:09] I want to say that. The second thing I want to say is, all of you who are listening, I want you to close your eyes and I would like you to think, do you have any other siblings? If you don't, do you have a child? If you don't have a child, think of somebody that you love deeply. If that, if you died right now, What would be.

[00:33:27] your hope for those people that are left?

[00:33:30] Do you want, would you want them to be in despair for the rest of their life missing you? What would you want for them? Because whatever you would want for them is exactly what our siblings who we have lost. And I've got chills all over my body. I know that this is Rocky coming through. My brother loved to laugh.

[00:33:49] He was joyful. It took me a while to work through my grief, but I gave myself that gift. It took me three years to write that book. I wrote myself through that grief every single day. I felt the pain and the loss, and I'll never forget this. Because we know with children, there's a much thinner veil. Um, and I will never forget his three and a half year old daughter coming out at breakfast time and looking at me, my other brother who was with me, and her mother and saying, Daddy said he does not want any more tears.

[00:34:27] I will never forget that moment as long as I 

[00:34:29] live. 

[00:34:30] Maya: Now you're giving me chills 

[00:34:31] Susan: Well, he came through to her because Rocky wasn't, 

[00:34:34] Maya: that because children don't have all these societal things that have been put in their mind and blocks. We, you know, as children, we see things and we're connected to the, we just came from, from the other side, whether you believe in heaven, universe, other side, whatever it is that you believe this.

[00:34:51] This is not a religious conversation. This is a spiritual conversation. It doesn't matter what you believe in. 

[00:34:56] Susan: We're made of energy. Yes, we're made of energy. Energy doesn't die. It doesn't die. So regardless of what people's

[00:35:04] Maya: Oh, I love that. 

[00:35:06] Susan: we are energy and that's just all there is, to it So, but, but that's what I want to say. that was my turning point. What would, if I were to die right. now, what would I want for my brothers? I certainly wouldn't want my brothers to sit around And cry about me. Are you kidding? I'm about laughter and love and adventure. It's I would want them to go on and live their best life. Enjoy it. And so that was what was very helpful to me. I think when I had that. light bulb moment of what would I want for my, for people who love me.

[00:35:46] Not to sit around and mourn me. Celebrate your life. The best way that we can honor those who have, that we, those that we love and have transitioned is to go out there and shine our inner light and, and, and be the best version of ourself in this world. What better gift, what better way to honor those that we have lost. 

[00:36:16] Maya: I really love, not only that we're talking about this, but the way that you are framing it, Susan, because here's, here's the thing, right? And I'm sure, again, you've heard this a million times too. People will often say that to us. Oh, your brother wouldn't want you to feel that way. Oh, your sister wouldn't want you to feel that way.

[00:36:36] And this isn't any type of loss, right? Your mom, your dad, your, 

[00:36:39] you, they wouldn't. But people get very triggered by that. And I'm gonna raise my hand on this. I got very triggered by that when people would say that. And here's why. It was dismissive. The way that you are presenting this And I'm like, God, I wish.

[00:36:56] So again, guys, I hope we're giving you the gifts that we wish we had because the way that you're presenting this is in a way that's digestible, whether you're in grief, hour one, or if you're in grief, you know, year 100, because here's the thing, nobody wants to. Open up enough, whether you're an extrovert or introvert, none of that matters.

[00:37:15] It's hard to sit there and tell someone, especially if you don't know that person. Right. And it's a, a new encounter or a meeting or whatever, and you're like, yeah, I lost my sister, or I lost my brother, or I lost, you know, whomever. But we talk about siblings or of course, and you know, them be like, oh, well I'm so sorry, you know, but they'd want you to be happy.

[00:37:36] That's dismissive. You know, and I think that's, 

[00:37:38] Susan: and there's no shortcuts. Yes, it's dismissive and there are no shortcuts. You've got to feel your way through it and. Know if you need help. I mean, that's, all I do is work with people around their grief and loss, right.

[00:37:52] Parents actually who have lost their children to suicide, to drug drug overdoses, really hard cases, and I, it is an honor.

[00:38:02] Every single time I'm gonna cry, it's an honor. Every single time I am able to hold space for people's grief, we grieve because we do not have a receptacle for the deep love that we have for this person who is no longer physically present. 

[00:38:19] Maya: right. I agree. I agree. And I think when you start to understand those, those aspects and components, it really, it shifts your, your grief in a, in a positive direction. It doesn't make it, it doesn't mean it's not painful, but it shifts it in a positive direction. And I just, you know, you sitting there and explaining.

[00:38:39] It that way. Close your eyes. Think about if you were to physically not be in this world anymore. And notice how Susan and I always say physical because we're still present with our loved ones. We are. And 

[00:38:50] Susan: Completely. 

[00:38:52] Maya: it's so true. And I just think that that is such a healthy way to think about it because, you know, when I, again, I have to go back and, you know, I remember when people are like, well, your brother wouldn't want you to be sad.

[00:39:04] And people still tell me that stuff. Susan. They're like, why do you still talk about your brother? Like, you know, get over it. Like, why are you still... No, I talk about my brother because he's still in my 

[00:39:14] Susan: He's a part of your life. 

[00:39:16] Maya: he's a part of my life. And also it's, it's so that people like you and I, Susan, can talk to all of you and to help you in your journey.

[00:39:25] I'm not talking about him because I'm depressed or going through, you know, the grief fog or all of these things we talk about. No, I'm talking about him because I carry him in my heart every single day, like you said. And I'm talking about him because this fills my heart to do that and to help others and to give back.

[00:39:44] And that's what I think, I just think that was so powerful, what you said, because I, that is a go to phrase for so many people, they wouldn't want you to feel that way they would know, but we have to do the work ourselves to do that close. I love this. So do this exercise if you guys didn't do it while you're listening to this.

[00:40:02] Close your eyes, think about your loved ones. What would you want for them? Because that puts a totally different perspective on it versus someone saying to you, Oh, they wouldn't want you to feel that way. It's dismissive. It's a huge, huge shift. I love that. Ugh. 

[00:40:15] Susan: And I think also to give yourself the gift, I think it's very interesting because I've worked with a lot of men too. In fact, I worked with a father for a year who lost his son to a fentanyl overdose. I worked with his wife and then I worked with him and it took him a year before he could Come to me, um, because it's everyone in th eir own due time.

[00:40:35] It's, it's, it's, like I told you, my, my boss, who was also a therapist after my brother died, said, you need to go get help. And I'm like, it's too early for me. I need to be with the shock. Of my brother's death first and but I'm a therapist. I have, I Love therapy. I think it's wonderful. And so, and I saw someone for a year.

[00:40:58] And I think that um, it's important to know when it's time. If, not everybody needs help, but know, be, be aware enough if you're stuck. And one way to know if you're stuck is if a lot of people in your life are like, have you thought about talking to somebody? Listen, sadness is, we don't need to pathologize grief, sad, we are sad when somebody dies and sometimes we need help to get through it.

[00:41:28] And if you do not have, um, you know, let me say one other thing too, I think for many of us. Anybody who's gone through grief will know exactly what I'm talking about, or if you're in the midst of it Right.

[00:41:41] now and you're in a very dark place, that anybody who has not been through a deep loss cannot possibly understand what you're going through.

[00:41:50] Don't expect them to. We can get very angry with people like, I know what you mean, my grandmother died and we're like, that is not the same thing. Your grandmother was 95 and we get really angry. But just remember, people don't know what to do. do when people are in deep hurting. They want to fix it. We cannot fix grief because it is a process.

[00:42:14] Do not go to friends for help if they don't understand what you're going through. Oftentimes we also feel like there is an expiration date. People move on after two weeks, not because they don't love you, but because they've got to get on with their life. But you who are grieving. It's okay to go get help.

[00:42:37] Go to a grief group. If that's not your jam, go get a therapist. If that's not your thing, maybe you are religious. Go see a priest. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you go see. It matters who you choose to sit with in your grief. Can they hold space for you? Can they listen to you? It's you are worthy of taking up space.

[00:43:04] And that's because you have the space for your grief and just know that not everybody has the capacity to hold that space for you. And it's not a weakness to get help for it. That was a little preachy but it's important that we all understand that sometimes we can't do things alone.

[00:43:26] Maya: I think it's inspirational. I do not think it's preachy. I know sometimes I feel like that too when I'm like, I get on like, you know, really inspired and I'm like, this is like, I'm, but no, Susan, I think it's completely just the, the information that we're talking about today is just so valuable. And I think.

[00:43:44] That is something that I hear all the time too, so I really appreciate you bringing that up because we feel invalidated so often by some of the closest people around us when we go through loss, especially a loss Like sibling loss like we're talking about because they'll say exactly what you said. I mean, we say this all the time, right?

[00:44:03] Oh my god. Yeah, I lost my grandma last year. It was so tough She died in her sleep and she was 96 years old or 95 years old Like not that we're in and what's so interesting to 

[00:44:14] Susan: And not not that losing your grandmother is not is not a sad traumatic thing it can be. 

[00:44:19] Maya: That's what's so interesting to me is we don't invalidate their grief, but they tend to invalidate ours. But you brought up an amazing point. They're not doing it on purpose. They don't know how else to connect with us. They just don't know. And that's why surrounding yourself and seeking out people that are going to make you feel validated, not because they're making you feel a way, but because it's natural.

[00:44:43] Susan: And not everyone, and not everyone can be in the presence of another human being's pain. As human beings, think about it as a mother, Right.

[00:44:51] Your kid, that your kid skins his knee, what do you do? You want to kiss it and make it go away and throw a band aid on it. Is that not a great metaphor for life? We want to kiss it and make it go away and pop a band aid on it.

[00:45:01] And there are some things that um, require more than a band aid. And you know, and I, and I think that It's just understanding that this is a true story. And I know we're probably coming at time, but I got to tell this story because it was excruciating for me. I'm a therapist. I play that role in a lot of people's lives.

[00:45:21] You can't take the therapist out of me, right? Friends come to me. I'm just that sounding board for people. I love that role. It's very comfortable for me. But when my brother died, I found myself. Trying to, I mean, I'm going to, I don't think I've ever said this out loud ever, but what I, where I found myself is trying to comfort people in helping them feel better about my own grief because they couldn't help me.

[00:45:50] And I felt such a deep discomfort with their discomfort with my discomfort, say that three times fast, that I really swallowed my grief constantly. And I will never forget one of my best friends from the time we were in the fourth grade. Said to me when I really started to put the mask on that I was okay, and I was far from okay But I just started to pretend which I think a lot of us do I?

[00:46:15] Started to pretend and she said thank God you're back I have been dying to tell you so many things and she said your voice finally sounds normal And then she just blurted out all of her life's issues, and I was like wow This is a very profound moment for me There is literally no space for my grief.

[00:46:37] And that is when I made a beeline to a therapist and I, every single week for a solid year, I had my space to do my work. 

[00:46:48] Maya: Yeah. But you know what I love about that story, too, Susan, is that your friend... That's a really good friend. That's a really good 

[00:46:57] friend 

[00:46:58] Susan: She was totally honest. 

[00:46:59] Maya: you know, well, she was completely honest with you. She also let you work through putting the mask on, having your grief, and you know, not every friend is going to do that.

[00:47:09] And that doesn't always make them a bad friend. You know, I'm, I'm big on talking about boundaries. But if there are people that, you know, are not able to hold your grief or be there with you. You know, once you come through the process and you start to, you know, find your tribe and whether that's a therapist, whether that's a group, whether that's, you know, your, your religious beliefs, whatever, like you said, so perfectly, you'll start to realize like some of my friends, you know, just didn't fit because they just didn't and they couldn't handle it.

[00:47:37] And you know, I don't hate them. I don't have any anger towards them, but. And then some of them I was able to re engage in and was closer with. So, you know, it just depends, but when you're in a, in a different state, I don't want to say stronger, but I guess for lack of a better term, you do become stronger through this and you're able to identify, Okay, you know what?

[00:47:58] I just wasn't myself. And, you know, they didn't mean anything malicious. We're cool. We're good. Or if some of those people just can't, it's because life moves us in different directions 

[00:48:09] sometimes, and that's okay too. 

[00:48:12] Susan: Death, death really, I think that,

[00:48:13] Maya: of your friend. 

[00:48:14] Susan: And death changes us. It changes us.

[00:48:17] Maya: Oh yeah.

[00:48:18] Susan: You know, and I think that, yeah, some friends will fall away and you'll make new, look, look at us. We never would have met if it weren't for what we had in common with our, with our brothers dying. And that's, the other thing, the gifts, you know, some people talk about grief as growing their life around grief. the way I have always thought about grief, even prior to my brother's death, is that that hole that they leave. It allows space for new things to bloom, and I always think about that with my brother, because the people that I have met as a result of his death have become some of my closest friends. I went to the Center for Grieving Children to get certified to run for a grieving group.

[00:48:59] Some of those people are still some of my closest friends. My brother died 10 years ago, right? It'll be 10 years in February. And, which blows Me away, because it's, It, it, it doesn't feel that long and, and, and, and from his death, these gifts keep coming and coming and coming as a result. My life doesn't look like it did 10 years ago, you know?

[00:49:26] And that's because of my brother. 

[00:49:30] Maya: And I think that's just a really, really beautiful way that you, you begin to start to open yourself up to that as you continue to move through your grief journey because it's so devastating for so long and it, I'm not saying it isn't devastating forever cause it is, but then these things start to happen and to your point, Susan, like, how would we have connected?

[00:49:51] Probably never would have, right? And I have met some of the most supportive, amazing. People that get me on a level and it's interesting because it's not just sibling loss that we connect on right you me and and I mean all of you guys listening would never have known me. I mean like it's it is just been a gift to me and I never want people to confuse that with the fact that like Oh, okay.

[00:50:17] I would do this again. I would lose my brother, but it's coming to a place of understanding that, you know, sometimes we do have, like you said earlier, we do have these traumatic things happen in our life. And sometimes we don't understand why they happen in that moment, in that year, in the first two years, five years, whatever it is, but as time progresses on and you really allow yourself to sit with that pain, that grief, and what you're going through.

[00:50:41] It starts to open up almost like a flower, right? And, and shows you, okay, it might, you thought maybe you were planting a rose, but instead maybe we have this, you know, bush of gardenias or something, you know, I mean, it's, it might look a little bit different, but it's still really beautiful what you get out of it.

[00:50:59] And it's not diminishing your pain and your grief, but it's also looking at the beauty that can come from tragedy.

[00:51:07] Susan: absolutely. And let me say one other thing too, about this, um, you know, part of what causes our deep suffering as human beings. And our resistance and our acceptance of what has happened, because really, we don't have much control over life. Life happens. And with death, I think that what compounds our deep grief is our inability to accept that it's true.

[00:51:34] Right? I mean, that's why I've said four months, oftentimes people hit a wall because that first four months you're in shock. Pure disbelief. Then we hit a wall that, oh my God, My loved one's really not coming back. I'm really not gonna see my brother again. And then, after we get through that part, it is this resistance that it's true.

[00:51:53] We don't want it to be true. And when we start to surrender, truly surrender to life, surrender to this idea that they are not coming back, is when we also begin to put the pieces of our life back together again. Right. It's when we, you know, we used to do this thing with children in grief group where they would break a pot, a terracotta pot, and they would paint it and throw glitter on it and glue it back together.

[00:52:21] And one thing that we would talk about it was just a beautiful metaphor that it doesn't look the same, but it's still beautiful. We can put our lives back together, they will not look the same like they did before we lost the person that we loved, but we can still create beauty. From heartache, we just can and we will find other ways to rock our inner shine a result of the experience that we go through from that death.

[00:52:52] Maya: And it's hard to like, you so beautifully said, yeah, thanks for sharing that too. And I think it's interesting and that's such a beautiful way to work with children on something like that. Right. Because children are just, that's a whole other episode, but you know, it's, um, it's, that's a beautiful, beautiful way of talking about that and showing them that.

[00:53:12] And, um, but I think it's, it's so hard to see that right when it first happens. It's so 

[00:53:19] Susan: you can't, you can't begin to see it when it first happens. Like you and I, like You and I have talked about grief. It is an absolute process, and if I could leave listeners with one thing, just one thing. Is leave, give yourself the space and the grace to grieve and find somebody to help you through it if you need it.

[00:53:41] Really, that's like the most important, that's the most important message I can possibly give. 

[00:53:47] Maya: I agree. You know, I'm obsessed with therapy too. So, you know, I'm always going to go to therapy, but 

[00:53:52] Susan: There's nothing left. 

[00:53:52] Maya: you like you said, whether it's group, whether it's your religious beliefs, whatever, whatever works 

[00:53:56] for you, that's totally cool too. And that's, that's going to work for you. So two things for you, um, Susan, before we wrap up, we 

[00:54:04] Susan: Mm 

[00:54:05] Maya: God, we could do like a three hour episode.

[00:54:06] Susan: hmm. 

[00:54:08] Maya: Just chatting away. We know that, um, to go back to Rocky just for a second to kind of, you know, His story, I just, it's almost like I feel like I don't, you know, know where to kind of round out his story, because his story continues through you, but share with us just, you know, I know you said that he had swelling of the brain and we're going to talk about where to find your book because you go into, you know, all this in your book and, um, unfortunately had to take Xanax and, you know, with Vertigo and all of that.

[00:54:36] But, you know, tell us a little bit about how that was right at the right at the end. And I know you share this in the book, so just tease us a little bit on that and, 

[00:54:46] Susan: So, yep. 

[00:54:46] Maya: like and then we'll talk about where to find you.

[00:54:48] Susan: Well, we were all excited. He was going over to Hong Kong because he had this new adventure. They were going to move, they were going to move to Hong Kong. And, um, and so that he attacked on a vacation with his wife and little three and a half year old daughter, Sarah. And, um, and she contacted us, my sister in law contacted us and said, you know, because when Rocky got there, he vomited, had a seizure.

[00:55:15] And then he had had another seizure and this was all happened within three days and ended up in the hospital and my sister in law is also a doctor. So she was talking to the doctor over in Hong Kong. And they all thought that he was withdrawing from Xanax because Xanax, when you. withdraw from Xanax, seizures are a very common, excuse me, a very common symptom when you're ripped off it.

[00:55:39] Because he had been on it for so long. And. So that's what everybody thought. And, uh, so that was on a Monday and he was dead on a Wednesday. And, um, so to say it was traumatic, I, I mean, it, it took us a year. The Hong Kong police had to get involved because he was a U S citizen. And because we didn't understand why the hell he died, nobody understood what happened.

[00:56:05] It took us a year to get that autopsy report. And then we, uh, when it was released, my sister in law looked at the report and we're still confused. The only thing that we know is that he had encephalitis of the brain. His brain swelled. And it squeezed through his brainstem and it killed him and, um, but, but some of that, there was a lot of horrific things that happened in that three day period over in this Hong Kong hospital, um, that I think contributed to his death.

[00:56:31] Would he have lived if he were in the States? We will never know. Um, but I do know that. He was put on a psych ward because he was delusional and, um, and nobody knew what the hell was going on with him. And, um, and so what we don't know is what caused. the sweat and caused encephalitis of the brain. That's what we, we don't know.

[00:56:54] It is a mystery. Was it part of the vertigo? That was the, you know, he, because he had contracted a virus. That's when we finally, we understood, we finally got an answer to the vertigo, but we do not actually know. Did that cause The swelling. I don't know, but it was when I say that it was the most traumatic thing that has ever happened to me and my family, um, on a multitude of levels, because here we are in the middle of winter in Maine.

[00:57:20] We had back to back snowstorms and we're trying people, people plan a trip to Asia for a year. We did it in three days, we had to get ourselves over to Asia. And it was, it's still to this day, when I think back, even though I wrote a whole book about it, it still feels. It's so surreal to me that any of the things that happened over there happened.

[00:57:42] It was a nightmare. That's all. That's all I can say. It was. I felt like I was walking through a living nightmare. 

[00:57:49] Maya: Yeah. I know. I, I just, and that's why I wanted to make sure we touched on that just a little bit, but obviously they can read your book. And one more question I want to ask you, and then we're going to talk about your book and your podcast and where to find you. Um, but you referenced this quite a lot. So I want to make sure people understand what you're talking about.

[00:58:06] When you said that, um, a little bit about shadow and the, you know, he, there was kind of a, I, I think of this as kind of like. Because I, I believe my brother was very similar to this and I think a lot of you guys will relate to this out there, how we kind of had this shadow side to him and what I love about you, Susan, is that you've worked in, you know, the mental health space, you know, the medical space, but like there's a spiritual side to you as well and I think that really balances you as a person because we can't deny, well, we can't deny, you know, medicine, Eastern or Western, right?

[00:58:40] We can't deny it, right? But at the same point, you know, I think it's really important as individuals, especially grieving individuals, that we have a balance between the two and we understand the spiritual component. And that really helps us in our grief, grief journey. Um, And that, that stunted me for a while as I've shared very openly a lot when I shut down the spiritual side of myself because I'm naturally inclined to be very spiritual and I think we all are.

[00:59:07] It's just a matter of being 

[00:59:08] Susan: 100%. 

[00:59:08] Maya: to it. Yeah. But what, what does that mean? Can you kind of define that for us? Because you, you often reference that with, with Rocky and I relate to that. So what does that mean that he had kind of the shadow side? Is that, am I interpreting that right? Cause that's what I think of 

[00:59:25] Susan: The shadow side, the shadow side for me is that we all have one, right? And I call it reconciling with ourselves. We've all made what we think of mistakes. I don't think. I don't, I don't think about what we do in life as mistakes. I think about it as experiences. And sometimes those experiences can bring on some dire consequences.

[00:59:42] Right. Um, and. And so with my brother, because of his adventurous spirit, but also, um, because he had, you know, he had a propensity toward addiction and, you know, so because that adventurous spirit though, got him into that dabbling into drugs and alcohol and trying things out. Me? No way. I wouldn't even try drugs because I was too afraid of them.

[01:00:04] Going back to a risk taker. He was a risk taker in all areas of his life. And so this addiction. I think was part of his shadow side where he. He had an addiction and, you know, he, he was battling that and as I said, he went on a cruise ship to get clean, um, et cetera. But what happened as a result is that he ran from those demons.

[01:00:30] He could not accept that he left his wife. He left his baby. He had a ton of shame. And so he ran away from that. And it took him halfway across the world, as I said, but no matter how fast or how far we go, you cannot run away from yourself. You either have to reconcile with being human and these quote unquote mistakes we make, or you try to do other things.

[01:01:01] Sometimes people turn to drugs and alcohol. Drugs and alcohol, by the way, it's never the problem for people using. It is the solution for the pain that they are in. That is what drugs and alcohol do. Drugs and alcohol very temporarily numb our pain. But it quickly, if it turns into addiction, turns into shame because people feel a tremendous amount of shame when they do no longer lose control.

[01:01:27] Um, so that's what I mean about his shadow side and it haunted him. And it, and you know, so he went to build a new life and he left an old life, but he could never reconcile with that life that he left behind because he never, dealt with it or forgave himself for it. So that's what I meant by that. 

[01:01:47] Maya: yeah.

[01:01:48] thank you. Thank you for going deeper into that because I think so many of you guys will connect with this. You know I connect with this. That was my brother too. I just felt like he was never able to forgive himself for, even though he put up this really strong front, like, oh, no one can touch me.

[01:02:02] Like, I got it. I got this. I got, like, he would tell my dad that. I got this. I got, which I shared with you before we started recording. You know, that was kind of one of his quotes, but I think, These types of people like our brothers and a lot of you guys listening whether it's your brother or sister They'll put those kind of friends up sometimes because they don't because of the shame like you said and they don't want to burden other People and that's why I think your advice all through this episode has been incredible Susan But kind of referencing this part of it where it's, you know, sit with your grief Allow yourself to feel the pain allow yourself because you know numbing it and not addressing it in whatever fashion you choose.

[01:02:38] That's unhealthy You're not gonna be, I mean, he went to Bali. He didn't escape it. He went to Hong Kong. He didn't escape it, right? So 

[01:02:46] I think 

[01:02:46] that's something really beautiful, too, is that we can get that, get these lessons from our loved ones that we've lost, and I think that's really, um, that's a gift, too.

[01:02:56] Even though it's a really hard gift to receive, we can learn so much from, from their stories. I think so.

[01:03:02] Susan: And, and let me just say this too. I'm sure there are listeners where their brother or their sister has died of an overdose. Maybe they chose to take their own life, and there can be a lot of anger around that. There can be guilt that we carry. How come I didn't see the signs? There can be, could I have done something more?

[01:03:19] There can be guilt, there can be, like I said, deep guilt, deep anger, all of these different emotions that can arise as a result. But here's what I want to say to all of you. If you do have a sibling that has taken their life due to an accidental overdose, an intentional overdose, or suicide, it is because of the deep pain that they are in.

[01:03:42] And I'm working with a parent right now where her son took his life because he could not deal with his addiction anymore. Right? Couldn't deal with it. And he had such deep shame that he could not get clean. And so because of that, he ended up taking his life. Um, and I think, you know, I, I have this. I'm going to offer this out to all of your listeners, a really beautiful exercise that you can try when you're ready.

[01:04:08] If you are holding on to residual anger, totally normal, we get pissed, why did you leave me? Is to write a gratitude letter. What is it that this person has brought to your life, even through their addiction? What have you learned? What have you learned about yourself in the grieving process? Because sometimes I think.

[01:04:28] What can compound our grief is that when someone has taken their life or died from an overdose, there's a stigma attached to that. And sometimes we do not get the kind of love and support out there from the people because it's like they got what they deserve. They may not say that, but I think we all feel that.

[01:04:45] I think we all know what that feels like, that, that, that judgment and each parent, I don't want my. I want my son or my daughter to be remembered for taking their life or for overdosing. They are much more than that. And it's okay if people can't see that that's fine, write a gratitude letter. What gifts has your sibling given to you and continues to through this experience, who they were, the light that they carried.

[01:05:15] That's what you can hang on to and celebrate. And I just wanted to offer that up. 

[01:05:22] Maya: Thank you so much for sharing that Susan. Yeah, because there are so many of you that listen that have lost a sibling to, like you said, I mean, as we know, fentanyl is such an

[01:05:32] Susan: It's an epidemic 

[01:05:33] Maya: uh, that's a whole other episode this season and, um, you know, Whether it's accidental, whether it's an overdose, whether it's, you know, um, death by suicide, whether it's, you know, there's, and there's a lot of things.

[01:05:47] And for me, that was a big, big thing with, you know, my, mostly my mother, more so than my father, um, because my brother was involved with drugs and alcohol. And a lot of people assumed that was how he died before it became public. Um, and there's a lot of shame in that. And I think there was still a lot of shame in it for her because he was.

[01:06:06] Murdered. So they thought, you know, Oh, well, he brought this on himself because he hung out with the wrong people and none of that. It's like everything you said, everything I'm saying, none of it is true. None of it changes the incredible person that they are and were. And, you know, I love the idea of doing a gratitude letter 

[01:06:25] Susan: Super powerful. 

[01:06:27] Maya: it is, I mean, gratitude in general is powerful.

[01:06:29] And then when you aim it towards that and you really hone in on that. I mean, that's just such a beautiful gift. So where do we get your book? I mean, obviously I have it. If you guys go to my website, surviving siblings. com, um, 

[01:06:44] Susan: You can get it anywhere. Yeah, you can get it on Amazon. Um, the title is Rock On, Mining for Joy in the Deep River of Sibling Grief. And my, you know what, if you guys just remember, RockYourShine. com is my website And there you can find everything. You can find services that I offer my book, anything that you want.

[01:07:07] Um, I also have something people can write me letters. If you don't want to go get help anywhere, write a letter. Just writing is, uh, another way of healing. As I said, I wrote my dissertation on that. Write me a letter. Just pretend you're, you know, you can just get it out there into the world. I won't do anything with it.

[01:07:26] I'll read it and I, and I'll respond. Um, it's just another service I offer. If you just want to get something off your chest and, uh, it's a safe place to do it. Um, and yeah, so rock your shine. com. Everything is there.

[01:07:41] Maya: And we'll put that in the show notes too. And of course your podcast 

[01:07:44] Susan: My podcast is there. 

[01:07:45] Maya: is there. Yes, everything is there. Of course, Susan, big hug. 

[01:07:51] Susan: Oh God. 

[01:07:51] Maya: for being here. This has been beautiful. I hope you guys enjoy this as much as, as I have. And I hope you've enjoyed it too, Susan.

[01:07:58] Susan: Oh, it's been fantastic. Thank you. I adore you. I just adore you. This has been amazing. Thank you for the questions. That you asked. Um, you asked some really beautiful questions and, and I just want to give love to all of your listeners who are, um, wherever they are in their own grief journey. You guys aren't alone.

[01:08:17] You really are not alone. 

[01:08:19] Maya: Yes. Thank you. Yes. We all need that love, right? So we are sending you guys so much love. Thank you, Susan. And thank you guys so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 

[01:08:29] Susan: Okay. Bye bye.